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    Dare 18 - Retro minimalist - DISCUSSION


    The place for discussion, comments, complaints and rants about dare 18.
    And also for commenting on the pieces others have submitted for the dare.

    Basically, if it is not a piece submission or voting it belongs in this thread.

    hmmmm..... erm..... I forgot...
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    How about a mellotron?

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    Allowed smile

    hmmmm..... erm..... I forgot...
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    Hmm, in the top half of the opening post, you mention that we are not allowed to record. Further down, you suggest getting help recording, from a friend or two.

    Did i misunderstand something?

    This sounds like an interesting dare. Btw, is it allowed to record tracks, and play them when recording new tracks, kinda like the Beatles did on peppers? (in case we're allowed to record)

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    Kyster wrote:
    Hmm, in the top half of the opening post, you mention that we are not allowed to record. Further down, you suggest getting help recording, from a friend or two.

    Did i misunderstand something?

    This sounds like an interesting dare. Btw, is it allowed to record tracks, and play them when recording new tracks, kinda like the Beatles did on peppers? (in case we're allowed to record)

    No recordings, please... At the moment we can't even keep up with sound uploads to moderate.

    What I meat was to imagine how you would have created the piece in the 60s. Since you had no DAWs, LFOs, sequencers or automation you would probably need some friends to help in order to do playing, mixing and effects tweaking at the same time.

    I guess you can use the technique you mention in your DAW.
    If most poeple feedback that they want to record themselves playing an instrument for this dare, i might relax that rule and allow people to record themselves to use in the piece.

    hmmmm..... erm..... I forgot...
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    You oldies... trying all you can to throw the new generation astray. I see whatchur up to. wink
    I think I'll have to reread the rules again. I'm too confused.
    Btw, Hi Kyster!

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    I am not that old - I just thought this would be an interesting challenge to the way we think and make music. smile

    hmmmm..... erm..... I forgot...
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    AlienXXX wrote:
    Kyster wrote:
    Hmm, in the top half of the opening post, you mention that we are not allowed to record. Further down, you suggest getting help recording, from a friend or two.

    Did i misunderstand something?

    This sounds like an interesting dare. Btw, is it allowed to record tracks, and play them when recording new tracks, kinda like the Beatles did on peppers? (in case we're allowed to record)

    No recordings, please... At the moment we can't even keep up with sound uploads to moderate.

    What I meat was to imagine how you would have created the piece in the 60s. Since you had no DAWs, LFOs, sequencers or automation you would probably need some friends to help in order to do playing, mixing and effects tweaking at the same time.

    I guess you can use the technique you mention in your DAW.
    If most poeple feedback that they want to record themselves playing an instrument for this dare, i might relax that rule and allow people to record themselves to use in the piece.

    Why not let people record something, and just let them upload it afterwards along with commenting and so on. So people would have an opportunity to create something with freesound sounds, and their own analogue instruments or voice.

    Hi afleetingspeck grin

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    OK, OK... I buckle to peer pressure!
    Recordings allowed. You can record yourself playing an instrument - still maximum of 2 instruments on the piece.

    ...And... pre-empting the next request: yes you can record a guitar, BUT please stick to clean (or slightly overdriven) tones and try to use emulations of 60s amps. - clearly modern tones will grant you a place in the dare naughty corner and the scorn of other Freesounders...

    Original dare post being amended to show this change.

    hmmmm..... erm..... I forgot...
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    Hi everybody,

    If I read this dares rules, I think its all about the 60s.
    And how someone would record him or her-self playing/making a song.
    I know my dad had some reel to reel machine, but he was a real audio freak back in those days.
    I dont know how to see this dare, I only have modern equipment........?
    Or, do we only have to make something that could have been made in the 60s??

    Record all the crap you can!! doesnt matter if it sounds like shit.
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    escortmarius wrote:
    Or, do we only have to make something that could have been made in the 60s??

    Exactly.

    You are allowed only a limited number of effects, and these are things that would be available at the time (or emulations of such things): tape delay, spring reverb, simple audio filters.

    You have to abdicate of many of the modern effects, tools and conveniences.
    For example...
    ...no use of the quantize function on your DAW.
    ...You have to think about samples and how you use them. You can play a piano sample chromatically (i.e., emulate that you have a piano using samples), but you cannot play a can hit chromatically (that would require a sampler, not possible in the 60s)
    ... In a DAW you can perfectly sync 2 samples (or recordings), if working with tapes, that is impossible.
    ... Also, although there is an almost unlimited collection of instruments at Freesound, you can only use 2 instruments.
    ... EQ is limited to high and low shelf filters...

    These are just a few of the small things to thing about.
    As you will have to think and work differently from what you would normally do, your track will sound necessarily different. Even if you are still using your normal DAW.

    Your dad might have a few tricks to teach you - LOL

    I think perhaps the best way to go about this dare is to imagine a little story of how you would be working and putting your track together.
    Say that you finished uni and went on a sea trip. Upon your return you decide to embark on this musical project - inspired by the sounds of the sea. So waves and sea roar would feature prominently on your piece.
    Just an example.

    Don't forget to make extensive use of the filters (LP, BP, HP)! That is actually a dare requirement!

    hmmmm..... erm..... I forgot...
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    This is the process I am thinking about. If anything may disqualify me, please let me know:

    Method 1 (stupid emulation):
    Record 1 track --> adjust faders and filters in one go (ie no drawing in automation) while playing the track back --> record second track while playing back the first track --> do not touch track one, but adjust faders and filters in one go on track 2 --> move on to third, fourth, fifth etc tracks, and use no more than 8 total tracks.

    Method 2 (I'm too modern for this **** emulation):
    Record all 8 tracks --> adjust faders and filters for each track one track at a time, and never touch a finished track once it is played back and adjusted once.

    I think method 1 would be more close to the process used back in he 60s. Say I have reel 1 and play and adjust track 1 on it; then reel 2 records another instrument and adjustments are made to it while playing reel 1 alongside. Once I'm happy with reel 2, I add the sound from reel 2 to reel 1 (so now reel 1 has sounds from 2 instruments), and I can blank reel 2 for a third instrument.

    I really dunno how reels worked, but I'm guessing the only thing that may not be possible is adding one sound to an already existing sound on a reel.

    Let me know if one of these methods is acceptable.

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    Yep, you get it smile
    Both methods are acceptable.

    hmmmm..... erm..... I forgot...
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    (sorry alienxxx, another clarification post)

    1) I have access to a beautiful antique analog synth at school, but because you put hobbyist in the description I'm assuming I still can't use it.

    2) you mentioned in a response here that we are REQUIRED to use pass filters which I didn't see in the dare description...most of the processes (although not the filters/effects) I use day-to-day are already the processes they used in the sixties (Pierre Schaeffer is pretty much my hero) but I rarely use HP LP or BP filters unless I'm using a badly made field recording...anyone have suggestions for how to use them artistically

    3) I was actually going to be uploading at least one recording of radio static/scrolling through the FM frequencies in the next week but you mentioned that freesound moderating is a bit behind, would it still be okay to use my recordings?

    sounds. good. -Joanna Geralyn
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    ...but I rarely use HP LP or BP filters unless I'm using a badly made field recording...anyone have suggestions for how to use them artistically

    Isn't that what DJs use extensively?

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    afleetingspeck wrote:

    ...but I rarely use HP LP or BP filters unless I'm using a badly made field recording...anyone have suggestions for how to use them artistically

    Isn't that what DJs use extensively?

    Yes it is, very good point - however, remember that you do not have other of the goodies that DJs have (tempo synced LFOs, automation, etc). But yest, you re right: DJs do use these effects a lot.

    jgeralyn wrote:
    (sorry alienxxx, another clarification post)

    No, please don't be sorry - keep the questions comming, these dicussions are great!
    Also great to see that you are interested in participating in this one.
    jgeralyn wrote:
    1) I have access to a beautiful antique analog synth at school, but because you put hobbyist in the description I'm assuming I still can't use it.

    I would ask you not to. Remember the 'minimalist' concept: I do want us to have a limited set of tools at our disposal so we maximize the use of each tool. Too much choice would ruin that challenging aspect of the dare. I am also looking for some realism in terms of what you could have used back then (financial and technical limitations).
    jgeralyn wrote:
    2) you mentioned in a response here that we are REQUIRED to use pass filters which I didn't see in the dare description...most of the processes (although not the filters/effects) I use day-to-day are already the processes they used in the sixties (Pierre Schaeffer is pretty much my hero) but I rarely use HP LP or BP filters unless I'm using a badly made field recording...anyone have suggestions for how to use them artistically

    I am sure the filters ARE in the dare description. Please check again smile
    Why filters? Maybe because I think they are somtimes under-reated or under-used.
    Also, again, the 'minimalist' concept to give you a limited selection of effects you can use. However, I believe that you can get far more sonic variation from such a set of filters than you would from certain other effects available at the time (for example flanger and chorus, phaser,...).
    Also remember that in ths dare you 'have' 2 reel-to-reel recorders: play the same recording on both at the same time and since they would not start at exactly the samer time or run at the same speed you would get wonderfull phasing effects - you can use this!

    In relation to creative use of the filters themselves.
    Filters work well with 'frequency rich' sounds: wind, rain, sea.... and also machinery noises (trains, engines, ...). Working with tape would mean it is easy to use of long 'samples' for filtering rather than short ones (e.g., individual drum hits would not work since then you can't sequence them into a beat...)
    Filters will also work well on voices.
    If you really want to go all-out, consider putting a filter in the feedback loop of the tape-echo or spring reverb unit that you are allowed to use (so that either the input or the return signal from the effect is filtered).

    Key thing: Imagine the physical setup and what you could actually do. You are allowed a couple of 'virtual friends' to help you. So imagine they are playiing the instruments and you are adjusting the filters and recording the performance to tape. You have 2 hands (remember: no automation or LFOs), so only 2 filter parameters can be adjusted at any one time. Your piece should reflect these limitations.
    Get the picture? smile

    jgeralyn wrote:
    3) I was actually going to be uploading at least one recording of radio static/scrolling through the FM frequencies in the next week but you mentioned that freesound moderating is a bit behind, would it still be okay to use my recordings?

    The reason for asking people not to upload sounds to be used in the dare is that the queue has been quite heavy recently. By all means record whatever sounds you want and upload them!
    Including the vintage synth you have accerss to - we will use it some other time smile
    But I do not want to be under pressure to moderate a lot of sounds that we want to use immediatelly for the dare. So being uploaded now may not be available for others to use in this dare.

    hmmmm..... erm..... I forgot...
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    Does my voice count as an instrument?

    grin

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    Kyster wrote:
    Does my voice count as an instrument?

    grin


    You can use your voice and it does not count as an instrument.

    hmmmm..... erm..... I forgot...
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    AlienXXX wrote:
    Kyster wrote:
    Does my voice count as an instrument?

    grin


    You can use your voice and it does not count as an instrument.

    Great smile

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    AlienXXX wrote:
    Kyster wrote:
    Does my voice count as an instrument?

    grin


    You can use your voice and it does not count as an instrument.

    But.. but... but... most tutorials on youtube teach me to mix the voice as an instrument! sad(
    Why the discrepancy? WHAIIII?!?!?!
    Ahem, sorry, a little excited about this dare.

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